random thoughts and musings ......

[humboldttuna]

got ya... thanks.

[Keta]

You going to post this over on BD so all the Avet pumpers can get thier panties wadded up? 

HEY!!!!  I represent that remark!

No, if a reel has problems it must be disgusted and fixed.  I'm happy with my Avets but they are far from "perfect".

I saw a mid size Newel reel kick ass on a 100lb+ YFT on the last trip (it almost kicked Greg's butt too) and was impressed with the way it worked.  Two speed would have been nice but after 2-1/2 hrs the fish was gaffed.  The reel caught several more wahoo before we had to return to the world with ZERO issues.

[alantani]

you guys are too funny!!!!!!!!!!!

[Keta]

A bit of humor makes life better.

[alantani]

Hello Alan, I have a question. I do fishing of all kinds and have been reading alot of ( Super Tuning Reels ) On Tackle Tour. There is a section and most of the reels are Daiwa or Shimano low profile freshwater baitcaster reels. Will I see a difference if I change the bearings to ABEC 5 or 7 ceramic ball bearings? Will I be able to cast farther, reel smoother, on my Daiwa Sol? Now I also see they have these bearing upgrades for round reels that are most likely used in Saltwater such as the Daiwa Luna if I were to change them, will I be changing out the CRBB? Please let me know how I will benefit from upgrading my bearings or should I leave them alone? Also smooth drag offers drag plates if I change those as well and add carbontex drags is the plates needed or just the drags? Wet or dry?

The reels I had in mind doing this to would be :
Shimano Curado 100D and 200DHSV current models
Shimano Chronach 50mg
Daiwa Sol
Daiwa Advantage 153 HST current model
Daiwa Millionaire 203,253 (gray ones)
Daiwa Luna's 103,203,253 and 300.
Thanks

most of this stuff is pretty straight forward.  for drag washers, go with greased carbon fiber.  use the same metal washers.  for bearings, what you're looking at is hang time.  the longer the freespool time when you spin a spool, the farther you will be able to cast.  what you're looking for are all the points where the spool shaft comes in contact with something, anything, that will slow it down.  ok, so here goes.....

first is the left side plate bearing.  abec 7 is for high speed.  that means rpm's in the 10's or 100's of thousands.  you have very tight tolerances with abec 7's.  that can actually be a bad thing because the tight tolerances can slow down a spool.  stick with abec 5's for our "low speed" applications.  for ceramic, i personally think it's money wasted.  just pull the shields off of you standard stainless steel abec 5 bearings and clean out all the old crud with a good blast of carb cleaner and a gentle stream of compressed air.  now for the big decision!  what kind of lube??  the lighter the better, but the less protection from corrosion.  for your application (non-salt water), go with the lightest, thinnest stuff you can find.  heavy stuff will slow down the bearing.  quantum's hot sauce is pretty thin.  wish they would have skipped the red dye.  it stains everything.  the metaloil at smoothdrag.com is decent.  corrosion x is great for salt water but it's going to be a little thick for fresh water and precision casting.  install the bearing cleaned, opened and lightly lubed.  one down....

about brakes.  i hear that there are a group of bass guys that have an odd birth defect.  they were born without thumbs.  if you are one of those guys, then fiddle with the brakes until you can get just the right amount of braking action for the lure, line weight and casting force until you get the best distance without backlashing.  or use your thumb!  two down....

right spool or side plate bearing.  same as the left.  see the bearings post on how to remove a crosspin in the spool shaft to service the right spool bearing.  be very careful not to mangle the cross pin.  three down....

now, at this point, you'd think that the spool would spin pretty darned good.  if you have a disengaging spool, it will!  if you have a spool with a shaft that passes through the pinion gear, is also should still spin like crazy.  if it doesn't, you will need to polish the spool shaft and inside of the pinion gear.  for the pinion gear, find a standard or metric drill bit that is smaller but matches to inside diameter as closely as possible.  run the drill bit at high speed and CAREFULLY run the pinion gear back and forth over the drill bit to polish the inside surface.  you will have to hold it with your bare hands.  do use pliers!!!!!!  any damage to the teeth of the pinion gear will immediately ruin it.  if you are all thumbs or you are going to get your shirt sleeve caught in the drill bit, don't do this.  use good mechanical judgement and excercise safety and caution at all times.  to polish the spool shaft, use a dremmel and a polishing bit with polishing compound.  now lube everything up with the same stuff you used on the bearings.  four down....

ok, that's it.  this sucker should spin like crazy! let me know.  alan

[alantani]

This is a very technical site and some of the people on here have these reels down to a science. So, I've got a question or two concerning drag. I've heard that the drag on a 6/0 through 9/0 is basically the same. How close?

What sort of drag rating on the
1. Squidder
2. Jigmaster
3. Beachmaster (155)
4. 4/0

All with new HT-100's. Dealing with this based on a full spool. I realize the you get slightly more drag as you approach the bottom of the spool. Also, there is a rating for getting the drag to slip and a continuous rating, right? What is the general percentage relationship of the two? How much drag is lost between greased drags and dry drags? If the answers are not here, where might I find them? The Penn site that I visited was absolutely no help. Thanks

ok, the numbers are going to be ballpark only. i've never taken the time to check this out in any kind of systematic way. it would not be hard to do, just time consuming. some of these i will be guessing at, but i should be close.

penn 114h (and 115L) - 5 stack of #6-115 drags, working drag range to 20#'s, max drag range to 30#'s or more, damage to the brass gear sleeve at probably 25#'s. the 114H and 115L (6/0 and 9/0) have the same gears and drag washers.

penn 113h (and 320/330gti!) - 5 stack of #6-113h/320 drags, working drag range to 15#'s, max drag 25#'s, damage to the brass gear sleeve at probably 20#'s.

jigmaster 500 (and 309, 112h, and 113) - 3 stack of #6-309 drags, working drag range to 10#'s, max drag 15#'s, damage to the brass gear sleeve at greater than 8#'s.

squidder 140L - 3 stack of #6-60 drags, working drag range to 8#'s, max drag range 12#'s, damage to the brass gear sleeve at 8#'s.

beachmaster155 - 3 stack of #6-155 drags, working drag range to 6#'s, max drag range 8#'s, damage to the brass gear sleeve at 8#'s.

now, when you talk about "there is a rating for getting the drag to slip and a continuous rating," your're taking about something i would call "start up," right? that's the amount of pull need to get the spool moving. as opposed the "drag setting" that is the amount of pull needed to keep it moving. well, start up can be zero, or it could be double. fouled drags have a very high "start up," greased drags have virtually no "start up" at all. i would want the "start up" to not exceed 10% of the drag setting. too much "start up" and you lose fish.

as for the amount of drag lost when you grease a drag, that would only be a factor if the travel of the "drag star" was limited. you can always crank down on the star a little more, or push the lever a little farther forward. if you lose 20% of drag pressure becaue of grease, but can turn the star down 20% more, it's a wash.

that being the case, let's look at the issue of "lock up." this is the point at which you tighten the star down so much that the drag washer locks and will not slip anymore. read drag failure. drag grease will help prevent "lock up" in the same way that it helps to prevent "start up." this is usually an issue when the drags are fouled and "lock up" at a low setting.

here is the take home message.....

drag grease extends your drag range by allowing the drags to function under greater pressure before they "lock up." more importantly, it reduces "start up" and risk of losing fish as a result.


dr. rob can more eloquently address the issue of "high speed run out." i consider this to be an issue that applies only to the most extreme situations. don't worry about the squidder!

and just out of curiosity, why do you ask?

[alantani]

not you guys, but almost everyone else!  i thought i'd do a little write up on the limits of various fishing reels, to help people organize in their own minds which reels perform to what levels.  here goes ......

i see alot of broken reels.  i'm now at a pace of a little over 100 a month. I see three common issues that will bring a reel to me.  first, the drag starts to stick, which is the most common cause of structural damage to a reel that i see.  this could easily be avoided if the manufacturer would use a greased carbon fiber drag washer.  second is corrosion, which could easily be avoided if the manufacturer would use grease and oil in certain key spots, like all of the screw holes and all of the non-exposed metal surfaces!   and the third common cause of damage to a reel is the result of user error, pushing a reel beyond it's intended limits.  yes, this is one that all of you guys are responsible for. 

any stock reel can be tweaked a little to bring out a little more performance.  once done, there is still a limit it terms of drag pressure that you should not exceed.  simple in concept, but what's happening is that newer spectras allow you to use heavier line than most reel designers had  predicted.  in short, fishing reel technology has not kept up with fishing line technology.  a jigmaster holds 350 yards of 30# mono.  pack it full of 30# spectra and you'll break the bank!  that's why i think it's important to know the limits of a reel.  some are worthy of spectra and i'll call them third generation reels.  some are worthy of mono only, so let's call them second generation.  and a few old dinosaurs are worthy only of dacron, so first generation it is!  with that backdrop, i'm going to start listing off some reels, and what i think is the maximum drag that you can safely use to not mangle up your reel, and why...

**********

avet sx and mx - 9#'s at strike or full.  you only have one drag washer and one right main side plate bearing.  at drag pressures in excess of 9#'s, there is so much load on the bearing that it becomes increasingly difficult to crank the handle and will quickly damage the right main side plate bearing.  i would call these second generation reels.

avet jx and lx - 15#'s at strike or full.  you only have one drag washer and one right main side plate bearing.  at drag pressures in excess of 15#'s, there is so much load on the bearing that it becomes increasingly difficult to crank the handle and will quickly damage the right main side plate bearing.  more second generation reels.

avet ex - 17-18#'s at strike before losing freespool in the stock configuration, 30-35#'s at strike before losing freespool if modified.  this is a righteous 80# reel.  load it with 100-130# spectra, topshot it with 60, 80, 100 or 130# mono, set the drag to 25#'s at strike and kill anything that swims.  third generation.

avet pro - more drag than you'll know what to do with.  third generation.

**********

daiwa sl graphite - with carbon fiber drag washers, these reels can easily deliver up to 15#'s of drag.  i have never seen a broken graphite sl frame, but i would be concerned about this with drag settings in excess of 15#'s.  go with straight mono and a 30% drag setting.  use any weight spectra for deep water jigging, but do not exceed these drag settings.  second generation. 

daiwa saltist and saltiga - 15#'s.  at drag settings any higher than this, you can pretty reliably see the anti-reverse roller bearing start to slip.  if the back up ambassaduer-style dog fails as well, the handle can fly backwards on you.  pity, because carbontex drag washers can easily get you up to 20#'s of drag.  second generation. 

********** 

penn 500 jigmaster, 3/0 senator 112h and 4/0 senator 113 - 7-8#'s with a brass gear sleeve (drive shaft), 10-12#'s with stainless steel.  the absolute maximum drag delivered by the stack of three jigmaster drags in the jigmaster and 112h is 15#'s.  the black side plate 4/0 senator 113 can be converted from a stack of three #6-113 drags to a stack of five #6-60 drag washers to also deliver 15#'s of drag.  for all three of these reels, stick with straight 30# mono and a 20-33% drag setting in a modified reel.  second generation.

penn 4/0 senator 113h - the red side plate high speed 4/0 senator is very happy at 15#'s of drag, but stressed at 20#'s of drag.  at 25#'s of drag, you will start to shred the brass main gear and also round off the top of the brass gear sleeve (drive shaft). grease the drags, lube the bearings and load it with straight 40-50# mono with 15#'s of drag.  second generation. 

[JanZ]

Alan I've been telling guys for several years that the reason they pooched their reel was they over fished it with spectra. I always get the same stupid argument, "Yeah but I souped up the drags!". 

I used to fish Penn 500's with 60# in Baja, they didn't last long maybe a fish or two but way back then they were cheap ($20.00 with a spare spool even) so zorching a reel wasn't an issue.

I remember on one big LA Bay yellow having to change out the side plate mid fight to get the fish in...Funny stuff.

[alantani]

Hi there, can you please give some more theoretical explenation of these two:
 
"heavy duty belleville spring washers (key #50) are the reason for that. an increased drag range is easy to accomplish in ANY lever drag reel just by stiffening up the bellevilles." What is the role of these washers ? Can't the reel do with a standard shimming washers ? 
 
and  "i'm going to shim the bearing sleeve to see if i can get more freespool." Can you please try to explain the tunning process ?  Thank you in advance, Moni

the stiffer the bellevilles, the more drag pressure get.  imagine a coil spring in this spot.  you would barely get any drag at all.  on the flip side, a set of plain flat washers would not give at all.  you drag would go from off to full with no give at all (much like the accurates).  the bellevilles allow for settings in between.  the softest setting is "()()", medium is "(())", and the stiffest is "((((". 
 


the bearing sleeve is also called a freespool sleeve.  when the drag is engaged, there is inward pressure on the two spool bearings.  it is an axial or lateral load on the spool bearings that will dramatically decrease the spin time of a spool.  these bearings are designed to carry a dynamic load perpendicular to the axis, and are typically rated in the hundreds of pounds.  think of the vertical weight of a truck resting on the axle bearings.  these bearings are not designed to carry an axial or lateral load.  to do that, you need a very expensive roller bearing or you need a larger ball bearing.  that is the only solution for the right main side plate bearing. 
for the spool bearings, there is another solution.  it is called a bearing sleeve.  it has to be accurate to within several thousanths of an inch.  it will allow for "zero load and zero freeplay" on the two spool bearings and will allow for the maximum spin time when the spool is in the "free" position.

[alantani]

you guys have all heard the mantra before.....

greased carbon fiber drag washers.

spool bearings that are cleaned, oiled and installed open.

side plate and handle bearings that are packed with grease.

side plate screws, reel foot screws and rod clamp bolts that are greased.

a light coat of grease on all the non-exposed metal surfaces. 

oversized handle grips.

do these things, and even the lowliest reel would suddenly give you superior performance and reliability.  this is not rocket science.  this is a box filled with fishing line that has a handle sticking out.  there are no magic circuits.  the connections are all mechanical.  "the ankle bones connected to the knee bone, etc.,."  being able to service your own gear should be as basic a skill as being able to field strip an m-16. 



you may have seen it on the other board, but there's a guy that i THINK is saying that we are all too stupid to do this kind of work, and fools for even attempting it.  stick with me, fellas!  we'll show him!!!!!!!

[alantani]

i had a gentleman on another board tell me that i should not grease things that were not intended to be grease by the manufacturer.  well, here's what happens when you fail to maintain your gear.  doesn't matter what brand of reel we're looking at, the end result is the same. i fixed this one a couple of evenings ago. the drag and all of the bearings were toast.
 

 

 

 


to your bearing god, these bearings were probably crying out, "my god, my god, why hast thou forsaken me?" 

here's the reel foot from an accurate foot.  note the beginnings of corrosion.  i installed longer phillips head screws and tightened them down until they were firmly seated.  the grease will insure that this reel foot can be serviced if needed.  the owner has been instructed to check it periodically. 

[alantani]

so here's where i am on lubes so far.....

corrosion x - i pretty much use it exclusively. it was recommended years ago by the guys at my local shop. the claim being that it would not turn to varnish the same way common oils, even wd-40, would. i use in on fishing reel handles, level wind assemblies and in spool bearings. i have also started adding a drop or two to side plate screws when i'm worried about the frame cracking, like the frame of the daiwa saltiga. been pretty happy with the product over the years and i've got no plans on switching. rarely, i will use metaloil, rocket sauce, or hot sauce on bearings for some of the tournament bass guys that are never getting near salt water. i've never systematically investigated anthing else, and don't really see a need to.

yamaha all purpose grease - this stuff was recommended by the guys at my local grady dealership. it's salt water resistant, never hardens and stays blue forever. i can open up a reel 20 years from now and know that it's been service before. and if i open up a reel and i don't see blue grease, i know that it has not. honestly, that (and the $5 a pound price tag) is the reason i use yamaha blue grease. i grease all of the non-exposed metal surfaces with this stuff using just my greasy fingers or a ratty old toothbrush. i also pack all the non-spool bearings with it. it is another product that i have been very happy with.

cal's grease - at $25 a pound, it's a little pricy. i go through 6 pounds a year and i am only applying it to drag washers. there are still guys that do not believe in greased carbon fiber drag washers and for a while they were giving me constant grief. just to pee them off, i started slopping tons of grease on the the drag washers of star drag reels, then let the excess ooze out the sides. that saves you the trouble of wiping off the excess.

for smaller avet drag reels, i slop a little less grease on both sides of the drag washer and the matching surface of the spool, install the drag washer, and then wipe off all of the excess. i don't want the stainless steel drag pressure plate to stick because of the excess grease. that would decrease freespool. for drag systems that have a drag washer glued to an aluminum pressure plate (or to the spoon in the case of the new avets), i slop a bunch of grease all over the drag washer, particularly, the edges, and then carefully wipe off all of the excess. the goal here is to prevent water intrusion. if salt water gets inbetween the carbon fiber washer and the aluminum, the aluminum will bubble and the drag washer will stick. seen that plenty of times with older penn international drag pressure plates.

when i get an old lever drag reel with a carbon fiber drag washer, i grab an old blue rag and rub the surface of the drag washer. that will remove half of the old "crap" out of the drag washer and onto the rag. it will also drive the rest into the fiber material and out of play. the important point is to "raise the grain" of the carbon fiber material so you do not have a "glazed" surface. this prevents sticking of the carbon fiber to the stainless steel pressure plate.

you don't need any kind of fancy cleaners or solvents for this process. if the surface is glazed or corroded with salt, toss it. if it's just gummed up with oil or grease, it can often be cleaned with your trusty old rag. you will know that you are successful when you reassemble the reel, set the drag on your reel, yank on it and see no stickiness or "start up." if you're still having problems, get a new washer. the purpose of the teflon drag grease is to prevent water intrusion. if i recall the story correctly, penn's ht-100 carbon fiber drag washer got it's name because the penn engineers saw no wear on their carbon fiber material after 100 hours of constant full speed pressure. most reels would never see that level of performance in 100 years.

[alantani]

Hi Alan, I just wanted your advice on the frequency of reel maintenance. I fish the reels about twice a month, two weeks apart, and will usually average 3 days of non-stop fishing. I haven't opened up the reels this year to grease yet, should I do it now that it's winter time? What are some items I'll need to do this? Thanks for the help!

the trick is to get it right the first time......

what i do is go through a reel top to bottom. do this once and then you can slack off a little.  initial maintenance involves greasing the drag washers, packing all non-spool bearings with grease, greasing all screws, and brushing on a light coat of grease on all of the non-exposed metal surfaces.  once this is done, you should never have to address these again.  that leaves only the spool bearings. 

for spool bearings, i recommend opening them up, cleaning out the grease, lubing them with corrosion x and installing them open.  for maintenance thereafter, rinse the reel, towel dry it, pop it open, add a few drops of corrosion x to the bearings, and close it back up again.  that's it!  hope this helps.  alan

[alantani]

_____Original Message_____
From: V
Date: 2008-11-24 09:08:50
Subject:

Dear Sir,

I have read your article on stripping and rebuilding Revo reels, I would just like to point out, that for the Carbon Matrix washers to work properly, they have to be dry, no oil or grease, please don't publish this as it is going to cause others to follow your example and more headaches for the professional people who do the services.

Kind regards
V 

v, i'm sorry you feel this way.   for many years now, i have been advocating the use of pure teflon grease applied to carbon fiber drag washers.  the results have been nothing short of a miracle.  the results have been so dramatic, in fact, that most of the major reel manufacturers have followed suit. 

i am certain that you are already aware of the history of this application.  shimano first developed the greased carbon fiber drag washer and used it in their two speed tld reels.  this drag system was later extended to their tiagra line.  tragically, it was not used in their less expensive reels.  i have several guesses as to why, but i do not know for sure.  pity, because shimano will be the first to tell you that their greased carbon fiber drag system has a zero percent failure rate over the life of the reel.  that is correct, van, these drag washers never fail. 

i am also certain that you are aware that other reel manufacturers have finally started using greased carbon fiber drag washers i their flagship two speed reels.  these reels include penn internationals, daiwa two speed golds, accurate, tiburon, okuma and omoto.  sadly, avet insists on using dry carbon fiber.   even in the face of a growing body of avet owners that have greased their drag washers on their own.

so, with no background information on you (an introduction would have been helpful), i would have the following comments.  i would like you to consider doing some testing on your own.  my standard for performance is that a lead weight equal to your drag setting should drop 1 foot every 5 seconds when hanging from the reel.   i would be very interested in your results.  if, however, your employment status precludes such testing, working for a reel company or factory authorized service center for instance, then i guess this conversation has been rather pointless.  sincerely, alan tani.

[JanZ]

I like greased carbon fiber drags, they work great, don't stick and don't corrode like the pictures in this thread show.

It's a no brainier for me.

Have a great Thanksgiving Alan and thanks again for all you've done for the world fishing community.