random thoughts and musings ......

[alantani]

taking a hard look at all of the two speed lever drag reels out there, here would be my recommendations. it you are going to fish a reel until it dies and never be able to service it yourself, i would recommend the tiagra. straight out of the box, i think it offers the best reliability, though not perfect.
 

 
if you are looking for decent performance and a reel that is the EASIEST to service, then i would point you in the direction of the first generation penn internationals.
 

 
if you have no problem getting in and out of a reel, then you can pretty much choose anything you want!
 

 

 

[alantani]

i've taken the liberty of making up some categories of fishing reels. i've done this on my own. yup, had a little too much time on my hands. so here is what i came up with. i would call a first generation reel one that will hold 300 yards of 30# dacron and deliver 7-10#'s of drag. a second generation reel is one that holds 300 yards of straight 30-40# mono and can deliver up to 15#'s of drag. a third generation reel is one that will hold 300 yards of 50-60# spectra, a short 30, 40 or 50# topshot and deliver a max of 25#'s of drag.

good examples of second generation reels would be the shimano trinidad/torium 30/40, the daiwa saltiga/saltist 30/40, the avet jx/lx, the shimano tld 15, and the penn 500/112h (barely!). good examples of third generation reels would be the progear classic series 501/551, the accurate 270/870N, and the penn torque 100/200. please note well, the differences between second and third generation reels. these newer spectras and high strength monofilaments allow you to fish similar sized third generation reels at nearly twice the drag range of their second generation counterparts. case in point, where an avet jx will deliver a maximum of 15# of drag, an accurate 870 will deliver 25-30. a shimano trinidad 20 is safe at 15#'s of drag but a penn torque 200 can be cranked down to 25#'s.

third generation versus second generation. spectra is making all the difference in the world!

[alantani]

to get the maximum freespool from a star drag reel, polishing the spool shaft and pinion gear are critical. i recommend a buffing wheel and buffing compound to polish the spool shaft. to polish out the pinion gear, i find a drill bit that matches closely in size, then run the pinion gear up and down on the fast moving drill bit. that's quick and does a pretty decent job.

for bearings, the answer is one that you knew already. every time you finish a fishing trip, you need to pull the bearings out, clean them, relube them and reinstall them. that's right, single used and then service. that's why a user friendly reel is important.

for abec 5 versus 7, the 7's are really used for high speed applications. their tolerances are extremely tight. a fishing reel is about as low a speed application as you will ever find. abec 7's will just gum up more quickly. that's all. and they're not worth the extra expense.

the gear sleeve for the 3-stack jigmaster style progear bridges are cut a little differently. i'd need to have the reel in hand to get a proper fit. i have a pair that i can send to you, plus a couple of bronze shim washers, but i'd rather be able to check it myself. would you mind sending it to me? or shall i just ship down a couple of the specially cut progear gear sleeves for you to try. you would use the stock bridge plate and just change out the gear sleeve (aka drive shaft). they're $20 each.

[alantani]

there is the amount of pressure needed to start a spool moving.  this is called "start up".  there is an amount of pressure needed to keep a spool moving.  this is called "drag."  ideally, there should be zero "start up."  you will frequently find 10 to 100% "start up" in reels that use drag systems other than greased carbon fiber.  if a drag is set to 15#'s and takes 30#'s to get the spool moving, then 30#'s is not a drag setting.  it is a disaster waiting for a place to happen. 

so what do i define as a functional drag?  my definition is "one foot every 5 seconds."  put the reel on the rod, run the line through the guides, tie the line off to a desired amount of lead.  if you have 30# test line and you want 10#'s of drag, tie the line off to a 10# downrigger weight.  now cinch down on the drag good a tight, reel down to the weight, lift until the butt of the rod is at a 45 degree angle and the weight is hanging at the tip of the rod.  now back off on the drag until the weight drops one foot every five seconds.  if your drag system is smooth enough to do that, then you have a functional drag.

oh, and the last part.  cut off the weight and turn the handle.  see how smooth the gears are?  now tie the line off to the bumper of a truck and let it speed off for 100 yards (or two).  now reel the line back in and note what condition the gears are in.  at 25#'s of drag, i would hazard to guess that the gears will be shredded. 

[alantani]

had a couple guys ask about lubes recently. it's a work in progress, so here's where i'm at now ......

for bearings, i have some "speed" lubes for the bass guys, but they don't get used much. i'm pretty much exclusively using corrosion x, but i keep it in a reel x bottle. that's been a point of some confusion. i started at the recommendation of my local tackle shop. it's worked well enough, so i've seen no need to change. the reel x is $5 for a tiny bottle, the corrosion x is $17 for a big trigger spray bottle. the math is easy.

for drag grease, i just switched to cal's drag grease and i'm very happy with it. i had purchased 6 pounds of shimano drag grease late last year and finally ran out. cal's grease is $24 per pound, shimano's is $80. the math is pretty easy here as well.

for the screw holes and other non-exposed metal surfaces, i am still using yamaha engine grease. there are four reasons here. first, i was told way back by my yamaha dealer that this grease had excellent salt water resistance. i've never questioned that claim but it seems to have held up. two, it's available in cartridges for mini-grease guns. you've seen my grease gun before. it's a life saver. three, it's dirt cheap, at i think $5 for a one pound tub or $7 for a set of three mini-grease gun cartridges. and forth, the stuff says blue forever. i can open up a reel five years down the line and see that i've been there before. that helps me quite a bit, because i like to know if a reel comes back with a problem.

and then there was my secret sauce. i was goofing around with a mix of corrosion x and shimano drag grease for a while. i was looking for a lube that i could use in spool bearings. the goal was more protection than simple corrosion x, and more spin than heavy grease. i got my best results from a mix of 1 part shimano teflon grease and 5 parts corrosion x. even these results were disappointing, so i gave up. i've come to the conclusion that bearings will simply not last forever. if i want a reel to cast, i leave the bearing open and lubed with corrosion x. if the reel is used for trolling only, then i pack the bearings with grease and reinstall the shields or seals. it's one way or the other.

[alantani]

regarding the avet reel in general, i would have a couple of comments. please take all of this as my humble opinion and mentally add "i think" to the beginning of each sentence. these are just my opinions, some well founded, others perhaps less so. first, let me say that avet is an american company making a fine product. for that, they are to be commended. they have chosen a price point and have worked very hard to stay there. i'm sure it has not been easy. second, they have shown great courage in being willing to take a chance on a design (the open drag chamber) that was unproven, and i think that was brilliant. third, they have stubbornly continued to use dry drags when the rest of the world now uses greased carbon fiber. for that, i am deeply disappointed.

all reels, without exception, have issues with corrosion. the time required to grease all non-exposed metal surfaces is cost prohibitive. all shielded or sealed bearings have air gaps allowing salt water intrusion. cost is a factor here as well. all greased carbon fiber drag systems have a zero failure rate. carbon fiber is not cheap. all other drag systems have a 100% failure rate. it is just a matter of time. i have found drag failure to be the leading cause of structural damage to a reel. you will see this in the next series of photos that i will soon post on the daiwa saltist. don't worry, daiwa is not alone.

i have posted photos of every brand of fishing reel in various states of failure. if that was all i did, i would be no better than a restaurant critic that had never cooked a meal in his life. but all of you have seen me cook. so if harry and sarkis called and asked my opinion, my recommendations would be grease on all the non-exposed metal surfaces, pack grease into the pressure plate, right main side plate and drive shaft bearings, leave the spool bearings open and lightly oiled, add oversized handle grips as options to all of the models, grease the drag washers and include detailed instructions on how to field strip the reel and service the bearings. to take full advantage of the new spectras and monofilaments, i would redesign the sx, mx, jx and lx to double the strike drag range. the larger avet reels already have plenty of drag. i would also pray that avet did not go broke instituting my "pie in the sky" suggestions.

right now, the avet sx and mx languish at 9 pounds of drag at strike. the avet jx and lx wallow at 15 pounds of drag at strike. the equivalent sized accurates deliver double the drag range, but at nearly double the price. penn has entered the "$500 premium reel" race as well. the star drag torque 100, 200 and 300 deliver drag ranges similar to the accurates. penn will soon have single speed AND two speed lever drag torques. penn recognizes the value of spectra and will position themselves accordingly. sadly for penn, they will be 5 years behind accurate. just like $4 a gallon gas, you should enjoy the prices while you can. they are only going up.

and what about avet? without change, the avet sx, mx, jx and lx will become the jigmasters of the future. they will be excellent quality jigmasters, but jigmasters none the less. i have always wondered if avet did not grease the drag washers of their smaller reel for fear of losing drag range in a reel that already had a limited drag range. drags in larger avet reels might then go ungreased to keep the genie in the bottle. who knows for sure?

certainly not me.........

[JanZ]

Interesting opinion Alan, I've never had a problem with an Avert, of course I don't own any so that's probably why.

Some years ago a friend of mine bought an HX or JX and since I was in the market for a smaller reel he brought it over. 

I thought it was a great looking little reel but after playing with it for a few minutes decided it just wasn't for me, not sure I even remember why I didn't care for it.

I remember putting it on a pole and attempting to cast a 1 oz weight and was not that impressed.

I think in the end I just bought another Newell 220 or 229.

You going to post this over on BD so all the Avet pumpers can get thier panties wadded up? 

[alantani]

You going to post this over on BD so all the Avet pumpers can get thier panties wadded up? 

no way ............

[alantani]

wet versus dry. seems like i've been fighting this battle for the last 10 years. what's the big deal? i still get asked once in a while, so i'd like to go through some points that i think are important and then i think you'll have a better idea of where i'm coming from.

just so we're all on the same page, i'd like to define a few terms i use. the first is "start up." when you first pull on the line, some drags tend to stick a little, so you have to pull a little harder. once the line starts moving, it may take, say, 5 pounds of drag to keep the line moving. that initial pull may take 6 pounds to get it started. that extra pound (or 20%) is what i refer to as "start up." with a horribly sticky drag, the start up might be as high as 100%. my personal preference is zero.

the next is your drag setting. simple enough. it's the number of pounds needed to keep the line peeling off the spool once it starts moving. that number will increase as the spool height decreases. it actually doubles when the spool height decreases by half. for spinning, star and lever drag reels, i will quote a drag setting but always add "at the top of the spool, " even if i do not.

then there is "accelleration" or "high speed runout." this is the nasty tendency for a greased drag to become more slippery. a gentleman named cal sheets has done work some on this. imagine a situation with a large shimano tiagra 80, a 50# drag setting, and a 500# tuna. such a fish might take a 100 yard run in 10 seconds. cal sheets had found that the functional drag would decrease as much as 40% during these hard runs. it was not necessarily a function of temperature, it was interestingly more a function of speed.

the shimano star drag grease is a pure teflon product that has a melting temperature of 300 degrees farenheit. when applied in excess, this problem with accelleration was noted. when the excess was removed, it became less of a problem, but i do not know how much less. cal sheets also now sells a pure teflon grease. it has a melting temperature of 500 degrees farenheit. it is applied liberally to the drag washer of a large lever drag reel, then the excess is vigorously wiped off. cal sheets says that this has eliminated the problem of accelleration. i have no reason do doubt his work, but i have not seen the data.

and lastly, my definition of a properly functioning drag system. try this with your own rod and reel. spool the reel with a desired line weight. let's say 20 pound monofilament, just to pick a number. place the reel on the rod. run the line through the guides. tie with line off to a 5 pound weight, which is 25% of your line weight. clamp down on the drag star. reel down to the weight. lift the rod up until the grip is at a 45 degree angle. now adjust the drag until the weight drops one foot every 5 seconds. if your reel can perform to this level, then you have near zero start up. this is my definition of a properly functioning drag system.

regarding greased carbon fiber drag upgrades in top drag spinning reels, bait casters and small to medium conventional star drag reels, i simply find a carbon fiber drag washer that gives me a "best fit." i can cut them down to size pretty easily if needed. i slap a thick coat of grease on the drag washers, install them and let the grease squeeze out the sides. when i first started doing this, my friends were amazed at the smoothness and level of performance and reliability. many tackle pros, shop owners, repair personel and industry were adament that i was totally wrong. sometimes, it got personal. so what i did was to slap in more grease, and then take pictures. i just used the excess grease in non-lever drag reels just to annoy the non-believers. and one fisherman, after another, after another, would say "yes, i own this reel," and "yes, it is as smooth as he says." oh, and "yes, these drags last forever!" and for the most part, the harassment stopped. it is true that you get no respect on the internet without pictures.

what about lever drag reels? i always wipe off the excess, but that is because it allows me to get a higher strike drag setting before losing freespool. i am also concerned about accelleration, but i believe it will only be an issue with one fisherman out of 10,000. the start up remains zero and that's my main concern. the grease also prevents water damage to the drag washer and aluminum underneath. and when i say that i've almost won, here's what i mean. shimano started out with greased carbon fiber. they get credit for that original innovation. you will now see greased carbon fiber drag washer in all of the flagship two speed lever drag reels, including penn, daiwa, okuma, accurate and tiburon. only avet and alutecnos have dry systems. someday, that too may change. and then i will call my victory complete.

why no grease star drag reels from the major manufacturers? only progear has a greased carbon fiber drag system. i can only guess, but perhaps other manufacturers consider this system to be too expensive. and why make a reel with a drag system that will last forever, when they would rather have you buy another reel. as for spinners? they WANT you to buy a new one each year. otherwise, why would they introduce a new model every year? basically, start up is the main issue here. accelleration will never be. but this is a battle i know i will never win. it is simple frustration on my part, but i wonder somtimes if companies deliberatly make a reel that they know will fail, just so that they can sell another one.

and that, gentlemen, is the history of alan tani and greased carbon fiber drag washers. i'm actually just a pharmacist. this is a hobby that got very badly out of control. somedays, it just drives me crazy, seeing reels being promoted when i know the drag systems will fail miserably. i do try to avoid arguing over the internet. like wrestling with pigs, the pigs like it and you both get dirty. other days, i feel like changing over all the reels to this system, even if i have to do it one reel at a time. personally, i would ask that you all keep an open mind, and report your findings candidly, whether good or bad.

[humboldttuna]

Outstanding Alan!

[JanZ]

I love the greased drags, and since I'm not fishing anything you'd consider a "Drag burner" up here I never have to worry about toasting a drag.

The tuna we get here are easily handled with a Newell 229 size reel and 25 pound line, troll gear naturally runs a little heavier but a 3/0 size reel with 50# is almost overkill.

I find that I don't farm near as many fish at the boat with the greasy drags nor to a sticky drag at strike. 

I like Alan highly recommend greased drags for the average fisherman whose gear is having to do double or even triple duty depending on what type of fish he's after that day.

I've used the Smoothies but always seem to go back to the Penn HT-100's as they have never let me down. What I'd like to do is find an HT-100 that will fit my Shimano  4500 Baitrunner

[Foreel]

keep em coming Alan---thank you...

[alantani]

I've used the Smoothies but always seem to go back to the Penn HT-100's as they have never let me down. What I'd like to do is find an HT-100 that will fit my Shimano  4500 Baitrunner

http://humboldttuna.com/smf/index.php?topic=96.0

[humboldttuna]

Alan,

I have a Shimano 4600 Baitrunner and 2- 4600B Baitrunners.  Are you saying the following is a replacement part:

#6-5600 ($2.90) / 14.60 x keyed 41.15 x 1.15 / 4600-5600 live liner

??

[alantani]

nope.  find a pair of digital calipers and mike out the drag washers, then match them up with something in the chart.  the outer diameter is probably the most important.